plasticdash Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 I am wondering if driveability gains from twincharging are worthwhile . ie a 2L motor that will pull strong until 7500-8000 rpm whilst at the same time eliminating lag around the 2-4k rpm mark - ie something that is more linear in power delivery. The most efficient way i have seen is using something like a toyota SC14 supercharger until around 4-5k rpm (then clutched off) and "larger sized" turbo only from there on. I have seen a couple of ways for plumbing. I believe the way below loses efficency by having supercharger after intercooler (less heat loss, as air is heated by compression from supercharger) This way is better i believe - Plumbing looks rather simple to do too. obviously have to run a bypass valve to open up air (from filter) into turbo when supercharger is shut off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 I have a zoom magazine with a feature on a 13b 323 with that second setup using an sc14 and declutching. Supposedly it worked pretty well. the Delta S4 was setup intakte-> turbo->intercooler1->supercharger->intercooler2->engine But it had a bypass around the supercharger at higher engine speeds. The other one to look at is the hilmerson racing opel manta. That said what engine are we talking about in particular, and the really important thing is what vehicle is it going and and what is it going to be used for? Rallying is about the only form of motorsport where the twincharge setup has real benefits and even then you are probably better to spend your efforts on other areas of the car where you will get better gains. If its a "just because" project, thats cool and go ahead by all means, I just don't think its got any real benefits to a track car or a drag car where when you are racing you should be up in the powerband the whole time anyway - or you can afford to take a small hp hit and just run a supercharger on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipsittin Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 A friend of mine has a 4AGZE that is turboed the supercharged, it is in a 4x4 off roader and is the most powerfull over the whole RPM range of any engine I have ever seen. He was NZ champion for 2 years I think maybe 3 but has gone up a class due to modifications. If it was possible in your buget a knife valve that shuts off the super charger side of the intake when it dissengages. Corey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forced Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 Better to just use a pair of small turbos in parallel, like the V6 VR4. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 but they run out of puff stupidly quick - the guy wants power at 7500-8000rpm which a large turbo will do, the TD025s from the 6A12 or the TD03s from the 6A13 will still run out by 6000rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowlancer Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 Maybe mixed-size pairing of turbos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticdash Posted September 21, 2008 Author Share Posted September 21, 2008 mixed sized turbos could work. but having driven twin turbo legacy's im not convinced (ud think the factory could get it right). and i thought a rpm based supercharger assisted low end would be better than exhaust gas spooling a smaller turbo. (maybe its just me - i dislike lag) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIAT Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 Best way IMO is: Intake - turbo - Intercooler - SC - Aftercooler - Manifold Run a bypass (not a clutch) on the SC as soon as the turbo spools, most modern SC have a bypass built in for cruise conditions so not hard to adapt. Check this setup http://www.turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic ... lit=Morris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vvega Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 ...both in parallel push the turbo though a reed valve job done s/c supplys the boost ...then as teh turbo creates pressure ....it blows though the reed valve..and you turn the s/c off as it builds past the set s/c boost v Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIAT Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 ...both in parallelpush the turbo though a reed valve job done s/c supplys the boost ...then as teh turbo creates pressure ....it blows though the reed valve..and you turn the s/c off as it builds past the set s/c boost v That would work, but you'd need a reed valve on the SC too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vvega Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 yeap planned this all out before and half built it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCADTA Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Specialist-cars/Competition-cars/auction-177397703.htm have you seen this on trade me. he might be able to point you in the right direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipsittin Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Vvega your a fucking legend! Thats the best solution I have heard of! You should make the kits and a fortune man. corey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNAMUCK Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 It's well worth doing in my opinion. Supercharging is hammer as, but the high rpm power of a turb is mean too. Something that also hasn't been mentioned is that with the supercharger cramming in air, there will be an increase in the volume and temperature of the exhaust gases being expelled. The up shot of this is the turbo will spool faster. Toyota blowers aren't very effecient, so if you use one, you'll need to run it's boost through the IC. since the blower will be cutting out around mid rpms, you'll be able to overdrive the fuck out of it, and not have to worry about spinning it too fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipsittin Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 It's well worth doing in my opinion. Supercharging is hammer as, but the high rpm power of a turb is mean too. Something that also hasn't been mentioned is that with the supercharger cramming in air, there will be an increase in the volume and temperature of the exhaust gases being expelled. The up shot of this is the turbo will spool faster. Toyota blowers aren't very effecient, so if you use one, you'll need to run it's boost through the IC. since the blower will be cutting out around mid rpms, you'll be able to overdrive the fuck out of it, and not have to worry about spinning it too fast. Toyota blowers are Rootes ones in disguise man. They are awesome when set up right and shit when not. A few of the more clever buggers ing the world of cars have also noted that the Rootes blowers not matter what size are cheap torque down low and can be fitted to almost anything The only thing stopping us seeing more super chargers I swear is the amount of bolt on parts to turbo almost every car now. Corey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzsubbie Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 ive always liked the sound of doing an supercharger and turbo set up on an car. like to do one on an project in the future maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forced Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 How about quad turbos? 2 primary and 2 secondary? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNAMUCK Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Toyota blowers are Rootes ones in disguise man. They are awesome when set up right and shit when not. A few of the more clever buggers ing the world of cars have also noted that the Rootes blowers not matter what size are cheap torque down low and can be fitted to almost anything The only thing stopping us seeing more super chargers I swear is the amount of bolt on parts to turbo almost every car now. Corey Yes They are, but they are poorly designed. The rotors have a straight profile, with no helix like the GMC 6/71's (and similar) do. Eaton and the like have a helix which improves the overall effiecency. Although they can't hold a candle to lysholm screw superchargers. I'm well aware of what the Toyota superchargers are capable of. I haver an S/C14 on my Datsun A15. I'm down to 14.5 second ET's, with shit tyres. The problem with the toyota units is that they reach abadetic crossover around 9-10 psi. IE, they begin to heat up the air such that the decrease in density offsets the gains from the extra boost. Not such a problem on a blowthrough set up where it's possible to utilise an IC. But on a drawthough set up like mine, that isn't an option. My old engine (RIP) ran 11psi with the same set up I run now, but the increase in intake charge temperature caused some nasty detonation which lead to the demise of that motor. If you were looking for a small supercharger for a twin charged set up, maybe use a asin AMR350, or AMR 500. They sell for similar money to the toyota blowers, and are quite compact. Just overdrive it to buggery, and plumb it through the IC. I have an IHI twin screw blower for my datsun 1600. That'll be going on A CA18det. It can run 19000 rpm, 2.2bar, and can pump 18M^3 per minute. Plus they produce less heat, and have lower parasitic losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowlancer Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 how about 6 turbos?2 primary, 2 secondary and 2 tertiary???? Alex Lol cheeky shit Iv'e heard the staged turbo setup that Subaru uses is hated by tuners everywhere. Also, look up the Nissan March super turbo or whatever it was. Nissan lads should know. That used both turbo and s/c quite successfully I believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 haha yeah the MA09ERT (or was it MA10ERT?) either way, was a pretty cool motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.