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It has to be a category 1D certifier so not sure TMS can help but will ring them, thanks! 

Most people I have talked to have been helpful but no one can give you the whole process and some actually tell you the wrong thing. It was an entry certifier who sent me the CA03 in the first place to fill out and that was wrong it seems. Then NZTA don't make it clear what information they want and tell you to go talk to the Police to get a report it's not stolen. That was wrong. The Vintage Car club initially sent me the wrong papers saying I DIDN'T need LVV cert and that was wrong.

You hear of cars just like mine (other Austin 7 specials) getting through when they'd been handled by certain inspectors/certifiers then you hear of others being told by certifiers there is no way to do under the current rules. So someone is wrong there. It just gets very frustrating when you've spent 10 years building something and have tried to do it right the whole way through and get tripped up at the end by the process. Am not trying to do anything unsafe, nothing illegal. It's a bog standard 750CC less than 20HP vintage car, built correct to period and verified by the VCC as such so it shouldn't be that difficult you would think.

My advice for anyone doing an Austin 7 special at least is don't bother. There just isn't enough value in them to make it worthwhile. A bit sad really as there is a long history of Austin 7 specials in the history of motoring. Bruce McLaren started in one. So did Peter Brock. And Colin Chapman. The vintage car club bang on about losing members all the time and if people can't build vintage cars anymore that's only going to get worse. Although now all 80s cars are eligible as VCC vehicles so maybe they are hoping to bolster numbers by attracting aging boy racers in their R32 Skylines! There are a few old chaps who built vintage specials during lockdowns who are finding they can't get theirs on the road now sadly. We're trying to get an idea of how many people are affected now. 

Will talk to the certifiers today, see what they say and weight up if it's worth continuing. With NZTA saying it's a Scratch-Built Historical Replica and the VCC classifying it as a B5 (necessary to be a scratch built historic) so hopefully that means it falls under the exclusions listed in #01-2008. The bit that worries me is the 'as we deem appropriate" wording. 

As always will update when I get to the next step here.

 

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@VintageSpecial, Cool they finally got back to you (still tumbleweed for me, sent them another email today). Not cool on the outcome. Sorry to hear.

Wack on an old black plate from a swapmeet and just drive it? No insurance, and could get rolled by police if you're unlucky, but its not like you'll be commuting in it. $3000 is alot of no wof/reg tickets... Just sayin

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Hi Chris, yes I figured you were on here too! Was most helpful talking to you and it did clear up some things.

Regarding the lack of identity yes, the issue is that it is missing from Landata. That is a little annoying since they (being whoever the departments were at the time) lost a load of data when the system was first computerised. I think it was the Post Office initially. They only entered in current registrations. Anything historical was lost I believe. When NZTA now look up data are the using the same data set that available to the public (via here: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/open-data-portal/) or do they have extra information they look up?

This is important to know for anyone starting to build a car as lack of history does make it much harder.

Can you explain a little more around building a scratch built car about what parts you can/can't use? If you can't use different parts from different sources how can you scratch build it unless you start with a single vehicle then pull it apart? In Austin 7 world at least building a 'special' from period correct parts from different cars is extremely common. It's common for other makes of vintage car too. It's also very common for original cars from that period to not have the parts it started life with. Reconditioned engines, different axles, gearboxes and so on. Over 90 odd years things get swapped around. If the parts are correct of the make and to period I don't see what the problem would be. I imagine most of the Austin 7s on the road now in NZ don't have their original parts still.

As for multiples of the same car I can see how that could be a problem but that usually seems to be with high value cars and people trying to pass them off as something they aren't (e.g. Bugattis and Bentleys). Is that really much of an issue in NZ? If the car is registered as a historic special, with a modern date on it that shouldn't really be possible. 

If the parts all have to come from one vehicle, with a known history won't that just encourage people to take perfectly good, registered cars and break them up to turn into specials. An issue they have in the UK to some degree.

Can you explain a bit more what the process is then for cars made from parts? It would help to understand the process is before even starting on a project like this.

As for the "authentic replica (not readily distinguishable from the original)" I know you were trying to explain that to me on the phone yesterday. Does that mean it has to be an exact replica of an actual existing car? How does it work for cars where no two originals were the same? My Riley is a good example. The Brooklands were factory built on order, probably made with whatever parts they had on hand at the time, and with bodies made by different companies. I doubt any two were the same when they were built let alone 90 years later after most have had long histories, often raced, where they were changed year to year or even race to race.

In the case of an Austin 7 special it is harder as the very nature of a special means it's not like any other car exactly. Specials can vary a lot of course, from a standard chassis with a new body literally bolted on to highly modified but still totally period correct. So that determination can vary widely. If you start with a registered Austin 7 on the road now, rip off the body and put on a new one is that modified production or scratch built?

So how do you (LVVTA/NTZA) determine how accurate something is? Obviously it will vary case to case but what sorts of proof or evidence do we need to provide? And how can you know before starting a project what sorts of things might trip you up until you have actually built it. Obviously we can talk to the certifiers and LVVTA but for something like a vintage car (or some other less common sort of thing) until something is built what is you you use to determine if it will ever be able to be registered if the certifiers have no experience of it?

My Austin 7 might be a lost cause. If I have to follow the rules in the Constructors Manual it's no longer a period Austin 7. And on such a tiny car you struggle to meet the rules anyway I think. You can add hydraulic brakes for example, was a common mod in the 50/60/70s on Austin 7s but then it's no longer a period correct vintage car. I have no problem with the manual by the way, that's very clear and useful. It's more around knowing what is 

The Riley as a replica should be easier but how can I determine now that I will be able to finish it and get it legal. Obviously talk to the certifier, but what is it they will want to see/know and what sorts of things will the LVVTA be wanting to know. Hopefully they can tell me.

I guess I mean can I justify it is a historic replica now as you mention above before I actually finish building it so I know nothing will trip me up later? Then I can determine if it is even worth continuing.

Thank you for trying to help me, and others, understand. As I mentioned it's not just me in this situation. We know of at least 20 vintage type cars being built at the moment with varying degrees of success navigating the process. I don't want to go into too many details for fear of upsetting others builds!

Simon

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32 minutes ago, Goat said:

@VintageSpecial, Cool they finally got back to you (still tumbleweed for me, sent them another email today). Not cool on the outcome. Sorry to hear.

Wack on an old black plate from a swapmeet and just drive it? No insurance, and could get rolled by police if you're unlucky, but its not like you'll be commuting in it. $3000 is alot of no wof/reg tickets... Just sayin

It's not the fines though, it's the demerit points that could become a problem!

Plus I am a good boy :)

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Regarding the scratch built/modified production thing what happen if I bought a running, registered Austin 7 now, swap the mechanicals over to be my nicely restored ones, rebuilt engine, close ratio gearbox and so on. As far as I am aware that's perfectly legal to do and doesn't need LVV cert. At least then I would have a nice, period correct, restored car to drive.

What if you then later take the body off and put on a special body? Obviously that would need LVV certification for the body mod but what would the car be considered then?

Not saying I am going to do that or course, all hypothetical! It's not really economically viable. I like Austin 7s but they aren't worth throwing piles and piles of money at!

Simon

 

 

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51 minutes ago, VintageSpecial said:

1) Can you explain a little more around building a scratch built car about what parts you can/can't use?

2) Can you explain a bit more what the process is then for cars made from parts?

3) Does that mean it has to be an exact replica of an actual existing car? How does it work for cars where no two originals were the same?

4) If you start with a registered Austin 7 on the road now, rip off the body and put on a new one is that modified production or scratch built?

5) So how do you (LVVTA/NTZA) determine how accurate something is? Obviously it will vary case to case but what sorts of proof or evidence do we need to provide?

I've summarised your post into the questions and will do my best to answer as accurately as I can. This is entirely unofficial advice as there is no documented answers I can fall back on, so this can only be considered a subjective opinion at best.

1) A scratch built vehicle can be made up of any parts, as long as they are automotive parts that meet the relevant requirements.

2) The process for a car made from a pile of parts is that they are nearly always deemed to be scratch-built. It is unlikely that a car made from a collection of parts could be called a modified production vehicle. (also refer to my point about rebirthing stolen vehicles in my previous post)

3) This is a tricky one - it should replicate an existing vehicle but if they were all effectively a unique appearing vehicle, then I think there may be grounds to consider a replica vehicle built using similar construction methods and materials, however it must replicate in appearance and performance to what you would expect from a vehicle at the time. (ie: you can't make a space ship shaped body running a smallblock Chevy on a 1927 Rolls Royce chassis and say it is a Historical Replica because 1927 Rolls Royces were all unique coach built to order)

4) It's easier to explain this one with some scenarios for vehicles with identity
- Replacing the body on a vehicle with like for like is a repair and is considered OE production vehicle, (example - fitting an unfucked Hilux body onto a Hilux chassis that has had the body rolled over and squashed)
- Modifying the body on a vehicle is a modification that requires certification, and is considered a modified production vehicle, (example - cutting a Corolla station wagon into a ute body)
- Fitting a full custom body on a vehicle makes the vehicle a scratch-built vehicle (example - fitting a fibreglass beach buggy body onto a VW beetle floorpan)
Almost all vehicles without identity will fall into a scratch-built category unless they successfully apply Alt Docs and the vehicle gains an identity through that process.

5) Suitable information would be a description of the vehicle that your replica is replicating, it should include information covering the full running gear, chassis, construction methods etc alongside with as many images of the vehicle as is possible, pair the same information for your vehicle and we can make a comparison. It does not have to be a rivet for rivet identical, but if we can compare them, see a comparable silhouette, find substantially similar running gear and construction, then there is a possibility it could be accepted as a Historic Replica.

Again - this is not official advice, but the best I can provide having sat in on these meetings before where these determinations have been made.

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Thanks Chris, that's all very helpful and much appreciated.

Just now, cletus said:

Yes thanks, I had that one and NZTA sent me a copy too with the CA03 result which was good.

The other one important for my particular situation is #01-2008: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_01-2008_Introduction_of_Sub-categories_for_Scratch-built_LVV.pdf

That one mentions the exemptions for ‘authentic replica’ scratch-built vehicles which the Riley should come under.  

I don't think many cars go through that process. I know of one going through at the moment but not any others so far.

Simon

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Oops, got two replies combined there.

As I was saying Chris very much appreciated and nice and clear. 

For point 3 do you think an organisation like the VCC can help here? Does it help if we have other examples for instance? We already have the VCC DOMAS form which is where the VCC inspect the car and say what it is and what class of car but I don't know if that form helps with the LVVTA process at all?

Point 4 helps clear that up, thank you. Does the vehicle then get a new identity if considered scratch built. So say it was a 1930 Bentley saloon and a new Le Mans style racing style body was coach built for it in 2021 so the car falls under scratch built would it then be a 1930 or a 2021 registered car? Does it get a new VIN? I don't think that happens much here to be honest. But it definitely does in the UK.

Point 5. Yes, am documenting everything. You need lots of reference material when trying to replicate something of course when you don't have an original right there to copy.

Thanks again for such concise answers.

Simon

 

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3 minutes ago, VintageSpecial said:

Oops, got two replies combined there.

As I was saying Chris very much appreciated and nice and clear. 

For point 3 do you think an organisation like the VCC can help here? Does it help if we have other examples for instance? We already have the VCC DOMAS form which is where the VCC inspect the car and say what it is and what class of car but I don't know if that form helps with the LVVTA process at all?

Point 4 helps clear that up, thank you. Does the vehicle then get a new identity if considered scratch built. So say it was a 1930 Bentley saloon and a new Le Mans style racing style body was coach built for it in 2021 so the car falls under scratch built would it then be a 1930 or a 2021 registered car? Does it get a new VIN? I don't think that happens much here to be honest. But it definitely does in the UK.

Point 5. Yes, am documenting everything. You need lots of reference material when trying to replicate something of course when you don't have an original right there to copy.

Thanks again for such concise answers.

Simon

 

point 3 - VCC can assist you with producing the evidence that you might need from their archives, but they are not directly involved in the decision making process.

point 4 - Yes a vehicle will get a new identity if it is a scratch built, and they are registered as the year that they are completed, typically they year of final inspection, your example would probably be named a : 2021 LVV Replica Bentley Le Mans

point 5 - Did you have a body that you based your design on or did you just make it up out of your head for what looked right? Perhaps you have some images of that, the internet would probably be a great source.

No problems. Happy to help.

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Point 3, good to know. I am talking to the VCC too of course being a member of it.

Point 4 is interesting. The funny thing is I guess then your 1930s car that needed WOF every 6 months then only needs a WOF ever 1 year as it is registered after 2000? Or does it get treated as a brand new car so the first 3 years are WOF free?

Point 5.

The Austin 7 is made up but in period style. Very much like an Ulster (the factor never called them that officially, they are EA sports) but more curvy. The body isn't a direct copy of anything. It does get mis identified as an Ulster from time to time!

The Riley is very much more a copy of the originals using as much original reference material as possible. The body plans are from ones drawn up as a body to go on an original when it was in the country (but was never built as far as I know) and that body is based on original bodies. The car will be timber framed with aluminium skin exactly as they made them in period. I am drawing up the frame plans from original photos and reference material and have one original door skin I can copy. You can get a lot of idea of shape from a door skin! I am currently making CAD models to try to get it as correct as possible. I am literally right now 3D printing a 1:12 model of the chassis.

Most of my reference material comes from an original car that used to be in NZ (now back in the UK) that had a long history here in NZ of being raced, crashed, rebuilt and so on. That's a good example of a car that no longer has it's original factory engine. That ended up in another car somewhere back in it's history. Plus I have a huge library of reference material from all sorts of other sources. Photographs of originals and replicas. Hence knowing no two originals are the same!

I am in the relevant clubs (here and UK) and and documenting all the parts I buy and who from. And the costs - very scary.

Making the frame and body though is a lot of work hence wanting to know there is a way to get it driveable at the end. I spent 10 years learning on the Austin, how to do the aluminium skin, shaping it, gas welding it, finishing it all in a period correct way and so on. If I can't get the Austin on the road that's OK, it was my learning car. But if I can't then use these skills to get the Riley on the road there isn't much point continuing. I could get it to rolling chassis stage and sell it off overseas and let someone else go through the headache of making it legal where they are.

Then take up knitting.

Simon

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Am still talking to people about LVV certifiers who  might be able to help with a scratch built historic replica. Is there any way to find out who might have done those before and understands the process? I am making enquiries through the various clubs I am in too. 

I did find this section 7 in the LVVTA operating requirements manual here: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/operating_requirements_schedule/LVVTA_Operating_Requirements_Schedule.pdf

NOTE 1: As examples, a typical ‘Scratch-built Historic Replica’ LVV as described in 7.1(2) might be a constructed 1925 Bentley 3-litre replica, a constructed alloy-bodied AC Cobra replica, or a constructed Type-35 Bugatti replica. It may also be a Austin Seven sedan re-bodied with a period-correct open sports body.

So their might be hope for the 7 after all. I suspect they are a bit more typical than Type 35 Bugattis!

Simon

 

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  • 2 months later...
On 02/12/2021 at 03:39, VintageSpecial said:

I don't think that's pushy when their own email response says 10 working days and the web site somewhere says 20 I think. I understand the waiting until after your particular request is handled before complaining. Now I know about OIA requests thanks to them and the Police report when mine comes through I might do one to see how many applications they have actually had to process the last few months. That information should be publicaly available. They are putting more and more data online now too. You can see all the re-registrations here:

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/how-the-motor-vehicle-register-affects-you/motor-vehicle-registrations-dashboard-and-open-data/

According to that there were 17 re-registered cars in November. In October there were only 8. And in September 12. Don't know how many would be CA03 process ones though. A lot probably have old papers/lapsed existing rego.

You can filter on motorcycles too. 24 in November.

I am trying to find the actual API for this stuff which should be about somewhere I think thanks to all the open government data stuff. If you're a computer geek type like me they are quite fun to play with.

Do you know if the information in this database is updated immediately or once a month?

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  • 1 month later...

As Bling said, You have to prove its been on the road in NZ before. 

Can be a mish if there is no plate or docs. Best bet is if you can track down if a dealer has records of that car coming into NZ.
Even if it has plates, this still isnt a good enough reason for nzta if the plates don't come up in LANDATA. Anything that was deregistered pre 90s won't have any records.

 

You will need to fill out an Alt Docs form (here) and submit that to nzta or a lengthy approval process. Its a mickey mouse AF, as the form is for vehicles with no history, but the form says you have to provide vehicle history with it. 
Basically you need to build a case with evidence that this hasn't been imported as a stolen vehicle, or you aren't trying to re-create another car from parts etc.

 

Basically, too hard basket, look for another car tbh irl. 

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