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12 hours ago, linearentropy said:

Not oldschool but I've never actually seen confirmation on this. 

DC5 Integra / EP3 Civic front shocks.

I know these chassis suffer from serious bumpsteer when lowered, but that shouldn't apply when retaining the stock height.

They have a pickup for the tie rods on the shock itself as seen here. (Not a great pic)
DSC9320-640x964-1.jpg

I've read that this is the issue with aftermarket coilovers. However i'm not sure why, is it to do with materials, angles, both?

A few companies still make shocks & full adjustable coilovers for them, and while I can kinda understand why the usual Taiwanese suspects aren't given a pass, surely a company like Bilstein can be trusted to build something to a standard at least as good as the OEM?  Their offering seen here.

DSC9385-640x964-1.jpg

Would something like Bilstein or KW actually fail to meet the requirements, or is it a matter of everyone wanting cheap & cheerful?

As a side note, Tein, Bilstein & historically others have made OE replacement shocks for these chassis.  Am I correct in assuming that these will pass a legit wof because they are OE level replacements?  And that the issue comes in at cert time due to an LVVTA rule?  Surely something from any of these reputable brands would be better off than the generic £80 replacements I've found out of the UK which I also believe would be perfectly legal here?

I'm looking at picking up a civic and I've noticed that front shocks have been discontinued by Honda so I don't want to find myself in a position where I'm caught out with blown shocks and no real upgrade path.

These cars are a ballache 

There's 2 main problems with coilovers on these

1 is the fact that the steering arms are usually a casting or a forging which in general can't be welded or heated in any way 

2nd is a steering arm can't be welded so even if it wasn't cast or forged then welding would be an issue 

 

There is an info sheet on lvvta.org.nz about getting a welded casting or forging passed but I've never had anyone do it.

Apparently when the info sheet came out, BC had a strut tested as per the sheet, it failed, they modified the welding procedure, failed again so they said nz is a tiny market we won't bother. 

 

Brand doesn't matter,  I've seen issues with both bilstein and kw, some audis have the same design suspension and kw makes a coilover for those that the steering arm is fabricated from multiple pieces and welded together 

 

Years ago before that infosheet came out I got a couple of integras approved to be certed with cusco /tein coilovers but that wouldn't work now. The last one I did the owner found 2x stock honda shocks and had them modified to accept a bilstein insert and an adjustable platform, but it couldn't go very low

 

 

It's become less of a problem as that shape honda was never really that popular  

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I find it interesting that you could just whack a set of these Mugen shocks in, pass wofs all day every day no issue, because they dont need a cert.... yet if you needed a cert with these fitted, it would fail, wouldnt it?

2662-DSC_0130.JPG

Same with the KYBs i guess

SCANZ_SPO789460_hi-res.jpg?sw=1000&sh=10

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On 28/06/2022 at 08:46, Banga said:

Looking at dialing out some bump steer from my set up, looks like the best was to do so is to go to rose jointed arms.

 

Rather than drilling our the steering arm and using a straight bolt I’m looking to have a new pin made to match the OEM steering arm and taper.

I’m looking through the information sheet https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_04-2020_Spherical_Bearing_Rod_End_Conversion.pdf

The minimum sizes quoted are larger than the OEM specs I was hoping to replicate I.e. taper is 1/2” vs 16mm-  is there any wriggle room with the diameters quoted in the information sheet?

 

Contact justin@lvvta.org.nz 

I was under the impression that it could be made to fit a standard arm and taper and you base the maximum pin length from that, ie a smaller major diameter would permit a shorter pin than a bigger one would 

but the wording in one part suggests otherwise, that 16mm is the minimum 

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44 minutes ago, cletus said:

Correct 

The rules don't always work/make sense for every situation unfortunately 

Is there an active effort at lvvta to try and fix the rules or is it just a case of people who like more modern vehicles aren't lobbying at all?

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As far as I know, lvvta is absolutely flat out busy trying to keep up with updating standards and the CCM etc etc

So they do try to stay on top of stuff that is important 

To be fair, stuff like previously mentioned honda struts comes up not very often, I would have certed 1 car in the last 3 years that it affected, and there is already a process in place for someone who wanted to cert a car with aftermarket struts with welded arms . So it is very unlikely that LVVTA would spend any more time on it 

There are some situations that can never suit everyone unfortunately,  or there would have to be 200 people working at LVVTA and the rule book would have to be 4 billion pages long and a cert would cost many many times more 

 

Also there isn't a group that represents 'modern' car owners. There was talk of a group being started but I'm not sure what's happening there 

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Exhausts,

When going under/over a diff, for  a cert does the diff have to have no contact with exhaust when its fully jacked up? Eg if the exhaust goes under diff and cars jacked up, if it touches is this a no go?
Small car big exhaust problems

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2 hours ago, cletus said:

Shouldn't touch. you wouldn't need much clearance at full suspension extension though 

Figured as much, thats allgood, fabricators problem to solve haha. 3.5" is alot of girth to fit over/under a diff. 

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29 minutes ago, Nominal said:

image.png.37c8b0d28fbf431b8d11c4bc98856473.png

yeah some thing like that may help drastically if can find it with the right sizings.

 

just had a quick google looks like can get premade bends or pie cuts or straight tube in 3.5" oval in NZ so thatll be ideal

Edited by MRWEST
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On 29/06/2022 at 10:43, cletus said:

Also there isn't a group that represents 'modern' car owners. There was talk of a group being started but I'm not sure what's happening there 

There is a group for vintage car owners and it doesn't seem to help much. The VCC accepts any cars over 30 years old though, anything recent would be classed as a Post 1980 Vehicle. They are trying to get the 6 month WOF requirement removed for vehicles over a certain year which is good. The VCC definitely know about the issues around getting vintage cars back on the road but apparently NZTA told them they didn't have time to deal with them.

I suspect the various car enthusiast groups are going to need to start banding together more in future to have a voice. Which funnily enough is how LVVTA came about in the first place. Single mark car clubs are all losing members and not attracting new ones I think, especially for older vehicles. I would think the car clubs should be working with the likes of LVVTA more as they are really the group that was there to support 'non standard' cars, modern, classic or vintage. In my working through getting my pre-war cars on the road I found references in LVVTA documents to the VCC not being very involved early on and that's definitely hurting us now. Whether LVVTA are still the organisation to represent everyone I don't know but there isn't anyone else?

I know of one person who believes there is a world wide conspiracy to get 'old' cars off the road spearheaded by German company DEKRA. I've never quite understood the logic of the theory (like most conspiracy theories!) but it goes something along the lines that the big German car companies work with them to ensure only new cars can ever meet the safety standard that DEKRA are in charge of setting so that everyone needs to buy new cars because the 'old' ones are not safe enough.

I don't really see that is the case myself. DEKRA seem to support classic and vintage car events and so on and I can't see why they wouldn't want to be in business inspecting older cars. I mean if all that was sold were new cars what would they have to inspect?

DEKRA, by the way, owns VTNZ.

Simon

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I think LVVTA does as much as it can but they are so busy with dealing with modified cars that they don't have time for much else.

 

I don't really think it's their job to be lobbying for car enthusiasts either, people should be getting together to protect what we have

 

I personally don't think there is anything in the pipeline to get rid of collectible cars directly, apart from 'younger' classics getting caught in the push for safer/more environmentally friendly cars (the whole vision zero thing, and the possibility of a cash for crush scheme) 

there is a danger in my opinion, of it getting more difficult for environmental reasons, and I don't think this will be a "you can't have an old car" but more along the lines of "fossil fuels are bad and now are very expensive, oh your classic car runs on petrol? That's a shame!" 

 

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Yep, schemes like that would get rid of cars before they get a chance to become classics I guess. But then again are modern cars likely to be viable as classics in years to come? They are built more like appliances to be replaced these days than machines to be maintained.

As for lobbying I know the VCC do try. Not sure about other organisations or clubs but I guess so? Hot rodders? That must be a sizeable group.

I just want to get my vintage done so I can drive it before 1, petrol gets too expensive/goes away, 2 someone suggests getting rid of 'bad' old cars and 3, while I can still get in and out of and actually fit in the bloody thing!

Simon

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3 WOF related questions that the VIRM doesn't do a great job of answering.  Looking for opinions from inspectors.

1) How rusty does a brake rotor need to be before it should fail.  Assuming the cat still passes brake performance requirements.  We're talking scabby rust and pitting from living by the sea.

2) On a vehicle such as a Mazda 3 which has a bump stop on the rear lower control arm but also has a bump stop on the shock shaft... Are both considered bump stops or is one a spring helper?  The shock shaft one is a soft foamy rubber compared to the hard black rubber one on the control arm.

3) Slop or free play in the splines joining a 2 piece driveshaft together as found on the Ranger. There's no factory spec for movement and the only way to correct it is to replace the whole shaft.  At what point is it going to be a fail?

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2 hours ago, keltik said:

3 WOF related questions that the VIRM doesn't do a great job of answering.  Looking for opinions from inspectors.

1) How rusty does a brake rotor need to be before it should fail.  Assuming the car still passes brake performance requirements.  We're talking scabby rust and pitting from living by the sea.

2) On a vehicle such as a Mazda 3 which has a bump stop on the rear lower control arm but also has a bump stop on the shock shaft... Are both considered bump stops or is one a spring helper?  The shock shaft one is a soft foamy rubber compared to the hard black rubber one on the control arm.

3) Slop or free play in the splines joining a 2 piece driveshaft together as found on the Ranger. There's no factory spec for movement and the only way to correct it is to replace the whole shaft.  At what point is it going to be a fail?

Oh hi. I am a wof inspector. Here is my interpretation.

1) if a rotor face is rusty, and the braking performance passes I would not fail, but others at my workplace would. My personal opinion outside of the virm is get some new rotors or at least get the old ones skimmed as brakes are important.

2) mazda 3 rear bump stop above the arm, if it looks fucked, fail, replace it.

3) any play in a driveshaft spline is a big fat fail.

 

edit: see the definition of corrosion in the notes…

https://vehicleinspection.nzta.govt.nz/virms/in-service-wof-and-cof/general/brakes/service-brake-and-parking-brake#note2
 

pitting in the rotors should be a fail. Light rust should knock off with some heavy braking.

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6 hours ago, AllTorque said:

In fact, you don’t need a number plate for a wof.

I thought that was a thing but lately, the inspectors have been refusing to pass a vehicle if it's registered but the plates aren't with the car.  Required for identification or something?  But if not registered, then it doesn't matter

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