For Questions Regarding WOFs/CERTs/NUMBER PLATEs

[cletus]

One of my bosses yarns that amuses me, was a number of years ago he went to look at a scratch built sports car for a couple of gents who were qualified engineers, who took a long time to explain how clever they were and how many qualifications they had, and how they had computer modeled the custom front suspension and how it had great geometry etc etc  

Boss asks "what rack are you using"

They reply "ford laser"

Boss "won't work. Will go the wrong way."

Engineers "no its fine we computer modeled it and we are confident it is great"

 

Boss grabs the steering shaft , turns it left, wheels go right. 

They had used a rear steer rack but mounted it in front of the suspension 

[sr2]

19 minutes ago, cletus said:

I disagree. Someone who has been to university to study how to design a bridge or a dishwasher or whatever mechanical engineers do, who has no or minimal experience in the automotive industry, shouldn't be trying to figure out if a car is safe or not. 

much like I shouldn't be inspecting a house to say if that's safe, because I can't tell you what a nog or a dwang is  

 

Even if there was some sort of super engineer  who could design bridges and dishwashers and also know heaps about cars, they would still have to pay lvvta $250 for the cert admin , plate etc, plus the super engineers time, so the cost would be the same or probably more because the super engineer has heaps of letters behind his or her name so can charge $500 an hour 

 

Unless you are meaning that the super engineer could have some sort of system where they make up their own requirements and cert tag system in competition with lvvta? 

 

I deal with stuff on an almost daily basis designed by engineers who are actually in the automotive industry and they STILL get things completely wrong 

No offence intended mate (I'm in awe of the contribution you make to this MB) but isn't that kind of a "I'm right because everybody is wrong" argument? You probably need to substantiate it with at least your own qualifications.

[xsspeed]

If I had all my qualifications and experience from buildings but in the automotive field...

 

 

There's no way I'd cert a car for only $500

[cletus]

1 hour ago, sr2 said:

 isn't that kind of a "I'm right because everybody is wrong" argument? You probably need to substantiate it with at least your own qualifications.

Can you clarify what you mean please? I'm not sure what you are referring to 

 

I'm not sure how qualifications would make any difference to any statement I have made , it's only my opinion 

[sr2]

17 minutes ago, cletus said:

Can you clarify what you mean please? I'm not sure what you are referring to 

 

I'm not sure how qualifications would make any difference to any statement I have made , it's only my opinion 

Mate, reality is that all we both bring to the debating table is only our opinions. We may just have to agree to disagree (I suspect we may be kindred spirits). 

[ajg193]

The difference is that Clint is a qualified and specially trained inspector who knows the LVVTA rules inside out and has regular training sessions to keep him up to date in the field.

The fact that he inspects X cars a day while the average engineer in your situation would only inspect one car a month at best instantly puts Clint in a better place to pick up on faults as he would get a hell of a lot more exposure at that stuff.

[xsspeed]

Not sure if directed to me but what I am saying is changing the system to something more privatized using so called qualified engineers will only see price increase and probably time taken too. The benefit of a system that is effectively self certifying is that there is a legal compliance line drawn, interpretation is reduced and those certifying are well versed in what is acceptable or not. Won't please everyone but neither will the alternative presented. 

What I was meaning is if all of my engineering and industry experience was automotive and I was effectively reviewing everyman and his dogs interpretation of the codes, which have been applied in bespoke applications, there is no way I would only charge $500 a pop for taking on the responsibility/liability for saying its safe. I wouldn't get out of bed for less than 5k. This is what nzta and lvvta will be wanting to avoid cos that ends up being unaffordable and so people just won't get cars certed

There certainly are other similarly setup certifying within trades for buildings, id say plumbing, electrical and sprinklers/alarms are similar. Tbh i wouldn't be using the buildings industry as a great example, there's loads of inconsistency in quality of design work, installation work, and compliance processes. It would be faster, cheaper, safer if there was a cookbook

[RUNAMUCK]

Our system is great.

In aussie the job is done by engineers. And based on what I read on car forums back in the day, they all have their own different ideas about what is required. 

We're incredibly fortunate to have one set of rules for everyone. And even a process to step outside those rules if the need arises. (Think @yoeddynz using  two bevel boxes on that betterworkstories Bedford van)  

 

[yoeddynz]

21 hours ago, cletus said:

When a certification is issued,  the certifier pays a fee to LVVTA. This is about $250 at the moment. The rest of the certification cost is to cover the certifiers time  and business costs 

going by the amount of time that the likes of Barry, Kendal and a fella in chch I have used (his name eludes me right now) have spent on various cert jobs I have done, plus the paper work, the training costs to get there and the fact they then have the responsibility on them, I don't actually think the costs are very much at all.

The folk who grumble about the costs are probably the ones who did not follow the rule book or just ignored the certifiers suggestions and had to keep making changes because of stupid decisions on their own behalf.

I'm just still fucking thankful we still have a way we can go about to legally build or modify our own cars because its always on the back of my mind that this will get scrapped by the dogooders one day. I have many of my own project plans I have yet to even draw up and am hoping for a happy future of making things.

[yoeddynz]

1 hour ago, RUNAMUCK said:

Think @yoeddynz using  two bevel boxes on that betterworkstories Bedford van)  

That van is still going strong and he fucking loves it!

[sr2]

Each to their own, I guess I will always be an automotive anarchist.  

 

On a different subject I heard there's a new policy on stainless steel brake lines? 

I have someone with an imported car that has stainless brakelines that they are looking at getting complied/certed; I've never seen the point of using it, it's a royal pain in the butt to bend and even worse to flare. 

[JustHarry]

20 minutes ago, sr2 said:

; I've never seen the point of using it, it's a royal pain in the butt to bend and even worse to flare. 

The only point in it is for racing and hight braking load situations where the stretch of rubber lines makes a difference.  Stainless braided lines dont expand with braking pressure.

Personally I noticed a big difference racing small (150cc) motorbikes going from rubber to braided brake lines makes a much firmer better feel to the brakes .

For regular road use....kind of a waste of money..

[cletus]

36 minutes ago, sr2 said:

 

On a different subject I heard there's a new policy on stainless steel brake lines? 

I have someone with an imported car that has stainless brakelines that they are looking at getting complied/certed; I've never seen the point of using it, it's a royal pain in the butt to bend and even worse to flare. 

There are rules around stainless brake pipes, there is a list of approved manufacturers on the lvvta website. It's not a new thing, although there was an update recently on what sort of pipe can be used because like anything, China makes a cheaper version which is unknown quality so there is now a requirement to use quality pipe.

 

As you say it's a prick to flare and bend properly,  its easy to stuff it up and have fractures or leaks, that's why they have a list of approved people who can do it, who have supplied samples of their work to lvvta 

 

Hoses are a different story, as long as they have crimped end fittings and are good quality,attached correctly etc, they are fine 

 

[RXFORD]

On 03/12/2021 at 18:48, sr2 said:

 

You might find I'm more on your side than you think.

I think any suitably qualified engineer should be able to judge if a vehicle is safe or not. The LVVTA has cornered the market on what is safe and what isn't. Most likely started with the best of intentions, after nearly 30 years it has morphed into  a monopoly run by a group of private individuals who (if I was a cynical man ) one could claim that their primary objective is to justify their own existence. 

 

Isn't the 'suitably qualified engineer' you're referring to, essentially the Certifiers and staff at Lvvta?

If not, then how would you suggest these Engineers get the training to all be on the same page?

If there is more than a single industry standard or at least a guideline to follow, such as what we have now, it would just be a shitshow.

And what sort of 'Engineer' would be used. Its a pretty broard term. Even if said Engineer was knowledgeable about certain aspects of vehicle building, it would be highly unlikely, they would know everything that was needed, so who would they turn to for that knowledge?

[Yowzer]

This seems to be a pretty redundant conversation tbh

[Nominal]

[enzee]

hey oldschool, 

In the process of fitting a universal bolt together type driveshaft loop to my KP starlet and need some advice.

Starlets are uni-body so needing to mount through the floor with top plates. There is nice flat spot in the floor pan on passengers side but on the driver side the only position within the required 250mm distance from the yoke has ribs in the floor pan. 

My question being is mounting over the ribs like this acceptable with the additional minimum 3000mmsq plates on the underside? I used the curved section of the loop as it was easier to hold for the photos, but will obviously use the flat section for mounting to the floor. Will do a single bolt through at each rib with the appropriate plates.

I will be removing the sound deadening top and bottom once I've got the final position sorted, fuel line shown in photos will be getting re run out of the way so can ignore that issue.

Cheers

 

[Yowzer]

Hammer the ribs flat m8

[cletus]

 you could make packers to fill up the gaps 

[Banga]

Fuel system question.

just finalising my set up, decided to go with an under floor surge tank solution so that I didn’t need to seal off the boot area.

 

Am I interpreting the requirements correctly that I can have a breather line off the filler neck in the boot routed outside without needing to seal of the boot?