Nominal Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Adoom said: Over 100mm of travel, full droop to full compression, I'm getting 0.67 degrees of toe change. As the suspension is raised, it toes out. If I run the ride height I'm thinking of running, the travel will be reduced to ~60mm and the toe change would be about 0.45 degrees. What's that in mm? https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_04-2010_Bump-steer_Measurement_Background_Information.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bling Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 My brain melted trying to comprehend that lot... In theory, if you can keep the strut distance the same as factory, or close to it, there shouldn't be much change from factory in bump steer, correct? So for example, a shorter strut installed, with RCA spacers attached to bottom should keep the strut length not too different. It's all about keeping the steering arm connection close to stock distance from top hat position. Yeah / nah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaver Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 He's spaced down his front cross member so factory strut length probably become irrelevant....?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoom Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, Nominal said: What's that in mm? https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_04-2010_Bump-steer_Measurement_Background_Information.pdf I'm confused by your question. I've measured the up/down suspension travel in mm. And the angle the wheel is toeing in/out in degrees. Which I calculated using the distance between the two pins and how much gap there is between one of the pins and the board bolted to the wheel hub. (as the wheel turns/steers one of the pins lifts up). mm by themselves are a bit meaningless if you don't know the distance from the wheel center the measurements are taken from. eg: The largest meausrement I got was 5.5mm, but if I measured further away, I'd have a bigger number for the same wheel angle. I had read that pdf you linked. I can't use the method they describe because I've only got suspension(and modified steering) on one side of the car. 27 minutes ago, Bling said: My brain melted trying to comprehend that lot... In theory, if you can keep the strut distance the same as factory, or close to it, there shouldn't be much change from factory in bump steer, correct? So for example, a shorter strut installed, with RCA spacers attached to bottom should keep the strut length not too different. It's all about keeping the steering arm connection close to stock distance from top hat position. Yeah / nah? Nah aye. I've lowered the steering rack, because there is an engine in the way, now I'm trying to fix the bump steer that has caused. I'm not talking about bump steer from lowering the car "too much". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nominal Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 39 minutes ago, Nominal said: What's that in mm? https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_04-2010_Bump-steer_Measurement_Background_Information.pdf 2 minutes ago, Adoom said: I'm confused by your question. I've measured the up/down suspension travel in mm. And the angle the wheel is toeing in/out in degrees. Which I calculated using the distance between the two pins and how much gap there is between one of the pins and the board bolted to the wheel hub. (as the wheel turns/steers one of the pins lifts up). mm by themselves are a bit meaningless if you don't know the distance from the wheel center the measurements are taken from. eg: The largest meausrement I got was 5.5mm, but if I measured further away, I'd have a bigger number for the same wheel angle. I had read that pdf you linked. I can't use the method they describe because I've only got suspension(and modified steering) on one side of the car. Nah aye. I've lowered the steering rack, because there is an engine in the way, now I'm trying to fix the bump steer that has caused. I'm not talking about bump steer from lowering the car "too much". It was just that the LVVTA discussion was around toe change in mm, not so much in degrees Works out to about 3.5mm assuming 24" overall wheel + tyre diameter for the 0.67 degree or ~2.55 mm for the ride height change. If this is just one side, then the amount would be double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoom Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, Beaver said: He's spaced down his front cross member so factory strut length probably become irrelevant....?? Not that either. Cross member is in the same place, but the rack is ~50mm lower than factory. So I've also had to lower the tie rod end the same amount, which in theory gets the bump steer back to normal. 5 minutes ago, Nominal said: It was just that the LVVTA discussion was around toe change in mm, not so much in degrees Works out to about 3.5mm assuming 24" overall wheel + tyre diameter for the 0.67 degree or ~2.55 mm for the ride height change. If this is just one side, then the amount would be double. My imaginary wheel/tyre/distance between the pins is 470mm or 18.5". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nominal Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Can you measure what the change is on a stock car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bling Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Beaver said: He's spaced down his front cross member so factory strut length probably become irrelevant....?? Sorry I should have made it clearer, I was jumping on the bump steer question band wagon. Not commenting about his setup, I lack the know how to make comment on that bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoom Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Nominal said: Can you measure what the change is on a stock car? I suppose I should. But I'm lazy and I'd need to assemble all the suspension/steering/crossmember and fit it to the other(really rusty) shell I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bling Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 What is the suspension setup? Is steering arm and hub one piece or can you space down steering arm with RCA? (out of interest) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoom Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bling said: What is the suspension setup? Is steering arm and hub one piece or can you space down steering arm with RCA? Nah, it's a dick. All weird and british. The steering arm bolts to the back of the hub. Nothing like a toyota/etc. So it cannot be spaced down. I did think about maybe using a strut/hub from a japanese car, but then I'll probably have camber issues because of the angle of the strut/spindle. And this has the rack in front of the cross member and most jap cars have it behind. Also everything on this is in inches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 13 hours ago, Adoom said: Not that either. Cross member is in the same place, but the rack is ~50mm lower than factory. So I've also had to lower the tie rod end the same amount, which in theory gets the bump steer back to normal. My imaginary wheel/tyre/distance between the pins is 470mm or 18.5". here is your problem 50mm is a big change. spacers at the rack ends will only help with making small adjustments and will rob peter to pay paul, i.e will help in one part of the suspension arc but make it worse in another. the key part is the inner pivot point being as close as practical to the pivot of the lower control arm, or really the centrepoint of the arc that the tie rod end mount on the hub travels. you need to raise your rack up or lower your LCA mount to minimise the bump steer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoom Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Testament said: here is your problem 50mm is a big change. spacers at the rack ends will only help with making small adjustments and will rob peter to pay paul, i.e will help in one part of the suspension arc but make it worse in another. the key part is the inner pivot point being as close as practical to the pivot of the lower control arm, or really the centrepoint of the arc that the tie rod end mount on the hub travels. you need to raise your rack up or lower your LCA mount to minimise the bump steer. From factory the rack inner pivot is WAY above the LCA inner pivot. The tie rod end normally mounts on top of the steering arm. With the lowered rack, the rack inner pivot is 10mm below the LCA inner pivot. I've mounted the rod end bearing(replacing the tie rod end) under the steering arm. With the spacers I have now, the two outer pivots are also 10mm apart. I can raise the rack about 7mm before it hits the alloy sump. I'm fairly sure the oil pickup pipe is in the way of cutting the sump. I've got no room left to move the engine up/back. The design of the front hub does not allow for the LCA outer pivot to be lowered. The balljoint taper fits directly into the hub casting. You say "minimise the bump steer". How do I know when it is minimised enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Factory doesn't mean no bump steer, some factory cars are awful. Also the actual centrepoint of the arc the hub goes through is likely above the LCA pivot and further inboard because the hub stays more upright as the arm goes up. minimise bump steer = minimise toe change through suspension movement. ideal is none but often not achievable. whats acceptable exactly depends on the vehicle and you need to check with your certifier but from the lvvta factsheet. Quote I can't get zero toe change so what should I aim for? It is common to have some toe change as it can't always be dialled out. If this is the case then the best situation is to have toe‐in on suspension compression. Any toe out should be restricted to a minimal amount on suspension droop. A degrees per mm of travel rule of thumb would be nice but I think this is left open to allow the certifier to make reasonable decisions for different vehicles requirements, e.g a 4x4 or a oldschool hotrod are going to have different acceptable limits to a lotus 7 or sports car with lots of tyre and frim suspension as the limiting factors when making evasive manoeuvres are different. It's really about the handling being consistent and predictable. probably already seen this I am guessing https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_04-2010_Bump-steer_Measurement_Background_Information.pdf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 also I was referring to lowering the LCA inner pivot not the outer. the problem with that is it will help the bump steer but result in more positive camber change under compression which is not ideal either. its a relationship of the curve the hub goes through (which depends on the dimensions and suspension type) and the curve the rack end goes through. if you can measure all the dimensions of the suspension pivots etc you can plot it which is probably the best way to get your head around what is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cletus Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 The rules of thumb we use are 10mm max total for a newer car 20mm if its old Or no worse than original. We haven't been given a definition of what is old vs new it's a bit open to interpretation Where the toe change occurs is just as important as how much there is. An early mustang or falcon has a lot of bumpsteer (usually over 20mm) but it occurs when the suspension is at near full droop so doesn't show up when you drive it If you had 10mm toe change, but that was all in, for example, 20mm either way from ride height then it would probably be noticeable when you drive it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cletus Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Also if the steering arm is bolt on, you could potentially make a new arm once you figure out where it needs to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoom Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 1 hour ago, cletus said: Also if the steering arm is bolt on, you could potentially make a new arm once you figure out where it needs to go? I could. 1 hour ago, cletus said: The rules of thumb we use are 10mm max total for a newer car 20mm if its old Or no worse than original. We haven't been given a definition of what is old vs new it's a bit open to interpretation Where the toe change occurs is just as important as how much there is. An early mustang or falcon has a lot of bumpsteer (usually over 20mm) but it occurs when the suspension is at near full droop so doesn't show up when you drive it If you had 10mm toe change, but that was all in, for example, 20mm either way from ride height then it would probably be noticeable when you drive it Cheers. I'll have to read through the pdf a few more times to get my head around how my degrees relate to the mm measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 1 degree = 10mm if you measure at an effective wheel diameter of 575mm according to the info sheet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transom Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 Also don't you need at least 20mm clearance between sump and steering rack ? Thats the way I read it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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