yoeddynz Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 As much as I love the smoothness and simplicity of my rotary I am growing tired of watching the fuel gauge. For a rotary it's pretty bloody good but for a car which I love driving and want to drive more it's not good enough. I have driven 7200 km since getting it on the road the start of last November. Not huge mileage but enough to work out some stats. I have burned through 956 litres of 95. The car has returned 21mpg combined. That's 13.45 L/100km! again- not bad for a rotary, with a turbo, with a carb. It'll never get much better due to the basic of the engine design with its long combustion chambers. Mazda have spent a fair shit load more money and time than me and have given up. On long trips I tend to cruise just below 100kmh. Not because I want to drive slow but because it's just that bit more economical. I don't tend to cane the car that often- only when showing off or passing things, or anywhere hilly and bendy. So I want to pull the engine out and plonk in a 4 pot. Most likely with a hair dryer on the side. I have talked about this many times over in the past- usually just after having filled the tank again... Many have talked me out of it claiming that I shouldn't pull apart a nice neat sorted conversion etc. I should sell it as is and build something else I've been told. Thing is- I really have grown to like this car. The seating alone and driving comfort, quiet running, handling and the fact I rarely see any other vivas about keep me happy. I figure that on trademe my whole engine and box setup with included direct fire ignition etc should be pretty easy to sell and lump me with enough money to sink into what always seem to be very cheap bargain 4pot engine and boxes available out there. I need to re cert the car soon anyway as my widened steels are not on the plate. I might as well get it all done at the same time. I enjoy more than anything the whole engine installation and associated work part of conversions and hell- it's been a while since I have done anything major. plus if I put enough care and thought into I think I should be able to build a really neat tidy engine bay and hopefully still keep it looking sort of period/retro. My main concern is weight over the front axle. I would like to fit an engine that is very close too, if not lighter than, my current 12a. A standard 12a with a carb, alternator and starter motor is about 120kg. Add the weight of my turbo- I guess about 10kg. So something around 130kgs. The other factor with weight is that rotaries sit down low and fairly far back. But in my case as I have not chopped my bulkhead out my engine doesn't sit as far back as It could be. I figure that I might be able to have a piston engine a touch further back- which will be needed due to the extra length of any 1600cc plus engine over the length of a rotary. My radiator can be moved forwards- although if I can keep the rad where it is I then have good space for a intercooler in front. The car must remain standard looking- no visible intercoolers etc. Current positioning of engine... Engines/boxes I have been thinking of fitting are the mx5 engines and other Mazda B series twins like the gtx ones, Toyota 4age series, Nissan ca18 or sr20. Any other suggestions of similar small engines would be great. I thought about the early Suzuki swift gti all alloy engines but they seem rare and pricey these days. What ever I choose must be common enough that getting a spare or parts will be no hassle. Anything non turbo I will turbo if suitable. I want to aim for a car that will cruise on long trips with the flow of traffic and return at least 35mpg (8L /100km) or better. There is a Wealth of good info between all the oldschoolers so please enlighten me To start with- of my above engine suggestions can people please inform me of the weights. Preferably people who have weighed an engine as google throws up all sorts of figures. Plus info on the above engines on how easy they are to wire in. I like wiring but I don't fancy an engine with a non standalone Ecu that is a pig to separate out. I think must of the above are pretty basic though? And anyone has a possibly suitable setup kicking about under the bench then feel free to offer it my way. I found this setup when browsing but I have much to learn about Mazda piston engines- what's the deal with engine mount points on the block of these engines though- I would have thought the castings are made to suit only transverse mounting? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =518829220 And this seems a bargain. Shame it's way up north!... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =520524228 Cheers I hope I have not bored you all with my Sunday morning essay writing.... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borgweiser Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 FIAT Twin cam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoeddynz Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 Ahhhh- an oldy but a goody. Too thirsty from all that I have read. Plus finding good ones these days is getting pricey is it not? Cool looking period engine though. I have just been getting very excited about these little Mazda v6 engines... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_K_engine A few have fitted them to mx5's so that means it can be done. I need to read more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizzl Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 ill swap you a 2l pinto with 5speed for ya 12a? lol 500km from 45l...not bad for a 32 year old engiine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 LPG conversion on the 12a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoeddynz Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 LPG works well on a carb'd 12a but not with a turbo. Gets all a bit messy, would lose my turbo and then be back to very little torque engine, would end up with messy plumbing and still require cert etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 You can get gas injection kits now so it will work with your turbo. LPG conversions need an instlation cert and a yearly gas WOF. Neither cost much. You can buy LPG for about $1.12 per L, with a good system it gives great miles per litre too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikuni Posted October 6, 2012 Share Posted October 6, 2012 I have just been getting very excited about these little Mazda v6 engines...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_K_engine A few have fitted them to mx5's so that means it can be done. I need to read more. This would be so awesome. These engines sing, it would be worth it for the sound alone. That coming from an old car would be very cool.I should just shut up so you do that, but I'll go on. I wouldn't bother with those 80's designed turbo engines as they were very much for power rather than economy. I would look to as late an engine as you can be bothered with. Obviously things get trickier with later model engines, but much of this is for economy while still making decent power. The engine I put in my Chevette was a 2 litre twincam and even in a big heavy Vectra (1300+kg) it was rated at 5.4l/100 open road and 9.5 around town, which is very good. Imagine that in a car weighing half as much! It does have a tricky electrical system though, so I would suggest ditching it and going with a link if you wanted to head in this direction. As far as weight, it wasn't heavy but I never weighed it due to not having anything that could go over 100kg. It wasn't heavy though, I could lift the engine off the ground by myself and I'm not a big chap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldturkey Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Hmm, I know the feeling yeod. The dastun wagon does roughly the same, 13.5 l/100km. The rental car i've been driving over the last week averages 6.1 L / 100km, just crazyness. Man it would be sweet if it wasnt in such a girly shell. At the end of the day factor in the time and cost into the decision, eg. if the coversion costs $3000 to get from 13 L / 100km down to 8 L / 100km consumption then it would take like 90 tanks of gas to pay itself off (saving $35 each time you filled up).... thats about 4 years of driving for the average road user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldturkey Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I was considering an EV conversion, on my old viva, would be pretty much perfect for it because of being so light. But I doubt you would get much change from $10k. Not really cheap and theres heaps of stuff that could go wrong and cost $$$$. Plus people are still strugging to get a decent KM range out of EVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoeddynz Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 yeah- they are amazing- these new dang fangled modern car things! I have sort of hidden behind a curtain and tried to ignore how efficient modern engines are. but then we hired a brand new ford transhit 2 months ago while in uk and with fairly fast driving it still returned 40mpg. in a van! All I could think of was how neat it would be to have that efficiency in my Viva. Because I am pretty much all scottish blood ad a tight wad at that I am really planning to do what ever conversion as cheaply as possible. The whole car as it stands still only cost $3000 so its cheap motoring anyway. If I can sell the current engine and box on for reasonable money then that will help towards it all. plus I like to tinker and love doing conversions so I must say I'm pretty bloody excited about it all. Even this research is fun. Hannah's not helping though as she has just been reading a V8 car roadtest article in practical classics and now suggests a daimler V8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoKer Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 keep car whole / start a new? another HB/HC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikuni Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I have just been getting very excited about these little Mazda v6 engines...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_K_engine A few have fitted them to mx5's so that means it can be done. I need to read more. Just looked into this a little more. Tbh I'd be putting this off the top of the list, as there are a few difficulties in even getting a gearbox on there. Then there's the sump issues. Gearbox - nothing bolts up. Some things are close, but an adaptor plate is still required. http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn17 ... 59_961.jpg Which isn't too hard, but then you need to remount the starter, which is beginning to get tricky. There's some weird and wacky creations out there from people trying to get around this issue. http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22 ... 221125.jpg At least with the Opel engine you have a cheap gearbox that bolts up in the 4 cylinder VN Commodore gearbox. What about the 2.5 litre Opel V6? It's the engine I wish I went with in my Chevette and has the same bellhousing, so should bolt up to the Getrag box from the VN Commodore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoeddynz Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 You can get gas injection kits now so it will work with your turbo.LPG conversions need an instlation cert and a yearly gas WOF. Neither cost much. You can buy LPG for about $1.12 per L, with a good system it gives great miles per litre too. I think rotaries lose a bit on power with gas, plus I need space for a tank. I wouldn't want to run it stand alone on gas. I reckon that the costs would still add up. if I can sell my engine it goes towards the conversion- possibly could almost cover it if I'm cunning/tight... Brad- 5.4L/100km = 52 mpg. Thats pretty bloody good. Yours was the ecotech right? Better than the XE for economy? Yep- i do like the sound of a singing V6. looking into that one for sure. It would be cool if what ever engine I choose I can use factory computer due to cheapness of it all. Shizzle- I had a crossflow in it previously- that was good for 8L/100km on the run from chch to blenheim. But as much as it looked cool in there and worked well it felt so agricultural and rough. Was a top motor too with full electronic ignition and brand new weber 32/36 jetted appropriately. But compared to the rotaries i had gotten used to felt so rough and unwilling. Joker- Finding another HB in this condition cheap is hard- plus I cant really afford to get another car (although I love the chevette wagon on trademe right now...) I just love how the Viva is right now- but for economy. want to drive it more, long road trips, go away camping etc. I reckon there must be a few others on here who think every time at fill up about other possible modern engine swaps. Cool thing is that with a 40 year old car on cheap license fee, with no depreciation, generally cheap insurance and to me at least a completely modern enough drive if i excuse some wind noise- it all adds up to very cheap motoring indeed. I can never see my self buying a newer car. leaves me cold. A workmate with just no idea on budgeting has just spent $8000 plus financing on a Subaru non turbo imprezza, to replace an otherwise fine 90's Honda civic because its started to use oil. He had bought the civic on finance 5 years or so ago for $11,000! Calculates he has lost $1000 each year in depreciation but thinks that is OK?!! He just wont believe me when I say he could just buy a tidy, low mileage 80's or early 90's Toyota/Nissan, keep it well serviced and use that for cheap motoring. Even though he works on old cars for a living doesnt believe that they are reliable enough or cheap enough for daily driving Like as if people didn't use them all as dailys back in the day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizzl Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 crossflow vs pinto,pinto kicks arse...my old crossflow felt rough and agri too, but this pinto is smooth, and feels strong as. better than a newer motor with no character...love it when you mash the pedal and it just hauls..my first pinto never felt this quick...5 speed is awesome for cruising rotaries rule on smoothness...id love another. but if your after something cheap/easy/more modern,go for a 16v 4age... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoeddynz Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 Tbh I'd be putting this off the top of the list, as there are a few difficulties in even getting a gearbox on there. Then there's the sump issues.Gearbox - nothing bolts up. Some things are close, but an adaptor plate is still required. http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn17 ... 59_961.jpg Which isn't too hard, but then you need to remount the starter, which is beginning to get tricky. There's some weird and wacky creations out there from people trying to get around this issue. http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee22 ... 221125.jpg At least with the Opel engine you have a cheap gearbox that bolts up in the 4 cylinder VN Commodore gearbox. What about the 2.5 litre Opel V6? It's the engine I wish I went with in my Chevette and has the same bellhousing, so should bolt up to the Getrag box from the VN Commodore. The opel V6 is iron block isnt it? probably too heavy. The adaptor plate to be made is fine by me. But that starter position is wrong for my bulkhead. If it can be mounted down low, as per normal rotary position, then would be fine. Shit that engine look hot though- such a neat compact unit! I love the look of them cam covers. I must do more research plus inquire local wreakers for engines. But otherwise all engine ideas welcome. I also like the idea of the little 1.2 engines being supercharged, like CR500dom on RRides has been installing over the last seems like 20 years.... http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.c ... 727&page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoeddynz Posted October 7, 2012 Author Share Posted October 7, 2012 yeah- 4age is up there for sure. certainly pretty cheap. I had a supercharged aw11 years ago. 4AGZE engine was fantastic- and I seem to remember it being fairly cheap to run if I kept the supercharger from clicking in. Time for a bike ride and mull things over..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizzl Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 id put a 4age into the tina but its just a bit small for it....cheap to buy/fit/run....theyr a good choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sr1600 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Do you a deal on the complete ca18det setup ive got stashed (for when i get a 1200 coupe) if your interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepers Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 got room for a 1JZ? surprising economical in standard form. bit heavy though at 225Kgs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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